Curse

KebabVan · Jun 02, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

On the other idea of preventing/removing shouts, its a good one. However you need to forget the preventing part. skills that prevent shouts just means if its a hex you have to play hex overload to stop it getting removed so then you just end up with everyone playing hexes. Creating a new condition is just not going to happen, it makes the game more complicated when they are trying to simplify it and its too specific to paragons as no one else uses shouts or chants except the odd shields up or watch yourself.

However removing shouts/chants is another story. If in GWEN they introduced a couple of mesmer/ele skills that remove shouts it would be great. In my mind they are like enchant removal skills like drain/shatter shout, mirror of disenshoutment anyone? lol. But then you would have to have an icon for someone being affected by a shout which again would make the game even more complicated so not going to happen.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

no but it does have to do with the fact that a full para team is not soooo overpowered and completely independent from other gimmick builds. thats the point im trying to make.

also in the end my suggestion is still that we just add some skills to deal with shouts and chants, done, solved, easy.

Evilsod · Jun 02, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

For the love of god. To nerf Smite Ball and Signet of Mystic Wrath they had to do jack shit! Smite Ball eventually stopped itself after the meta owned them too easily and SoMW was just nerfed to not be so lame.

This is an entire class been nerfed, not a few skills, now stop, you have no idea wtf you're talking about.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by KebabVan

On the other idea of preventing/removing shouts, its a good one. However you need to forget the preventing part. skills that prevent shouts just means if its a hex you have to play hex overload to stop it getting removed so then you just end up with everyone playing hexes. Creating a new condition is just not going to happen, it makes the game more complicated when they are trying to simplify it and its too specific to paragons as no one else uses shouts or chants except the odd shields up or watch yourself.

However removing shouts/chants is another story. If in GWEN they introduced a couple of mesmer/ele skills that remove shouts it would be great. In my mind they are like enchant removal skills like drain/shatter shout, mirror of disenshoutment anyone? lol. But then you would have to have an icon for someone being affected by a shout which again would make the game even more complicated so not going to happen.

ok look at it from a logical view, a RL view. its easy to see how you prevent shouts and chants, just make someone deaf and they cant hear it.... but how in the hell do you remove something that does not exist??? the effect of the shout is the person getting motivated and going, but how do you remove that the shout is no longer there....... it never really was there.

i guess there could a mes skills called "destroy moral", or "distraught" but really that seems kinda silly lol.

KebabVan · Jun 02, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

yeah get your point but like i explained above prevention is a bad idea especially as hexes and a new condition would make the game more complicated. you would have to show who is affected by shouts in the same way as enchants, hexes and weapon spells. anet dont like the fact the games becoming more complicated so its not going to happen. changing a primary attribute on the other hand is perfectly possible.

EDIT: well if you are looking at a RL point of view, the whole thing is a joke.... its a fantasy game. if you want to look at it in terms of game lore which i assume you actually mean then - the whole concept of mesmers is that they can mess with your head. removing the morale lifting effects of a shout fits in with that. Also paragons are meant to be leaders in the game lore. so limiting the number would make perfect sense but you dont like that idea so bringing game lore into it contradicts yourself.

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

For the love of god. To nerf Smite Ball and Signet of Mystic Wrath they had to do jack shit! Smite Ball eventually stopped itself after the meta owned them too easily and SoMW was just nerfed to not be so lame.

This is an entire class been nerfed, not a few skills, now stop, you have no idea wtf you're talking about.

THATS WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY.... paraway is not alone in its cheapness so therefor PARAGONS SHOULD NOT BE NERFED, monks as a whole didnt get nerfed thanks to SOMW so paragons should not be nerfed tahnks to paraway, an alternate and simple solution should be found .

tenshi_strife · Jun 02, 2007, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by KebabVan

yeah get your point but like i explained above prevention is a bad idea especially as hexes and a new condition would make the game more complicated. you would have to show who is affected by shouts in the same way as enchants, hexes and weapon spells. anet dont like the fact the games becoming more complicated so its not going to happen. changing a primary attribute on the other hand is perfectly possible.

and adding new icons for shouts and chants is not over complicating things? it seems your idea would be more complicated and clutter things more. my idea just uses existing items differently you want to add new icons and skill behavior which is complicated lol

KebabVan · Jun 03, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

and adding new icons for shouts and chants is not over complicating things? it seems your idea would be more complicated and clutter things more. my idea just uses existing items differently you want to add new icons and skill behavior which is complicated lol

My idea of changing the primary attribute would complicate and clutter nothing at all.

Although ive kindve been thinking of shouts as a new condition in the wrong way. I guess already exisiting cond removal would work and no new icons would have to be introduced. But if you pile shouts on top of other conditions such as bleed/cripple/deep wound then itll unbalance the whole game as suddenly mend cond will just remove a shout, not the deep wound its meant to etc. it'd complicate things way too much.

tenshi_strife · Jun 03, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

what im not saying shouts should be conditions.... lol im saying they should add a condition called deafened which causes you to be unaffected by shouts and chants.... lol you misunderstood me

Evilsod · Jun 03, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

THATS WHAT IM TRYING TO SAY.... paraway is not alone in its cheapness so therefor PARAGONS SHOULD NOT BE NERFED, monks as a whole didnt get nerfed thanks to SOMW so paragons should not be nerfed tahnks to paraway, an alternate and simple solution should be found .

I give up...

tenshi_strife · Jun 03, 2007, 12:12 AM // 00:12

lol sorry if i killed your day evilsod but i really had to make my point and in my eyes this should not be done ^^

KebabVan · Jun 03, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

OK deafened - bad idea. forgot what you were talking about lol. deafened far to narrow a condition as it only really affects paragons. pretty sure i said that already. prevention in the form of hexes is bad too as it means you have to run hex overload to stop them getting removed in pvp.

Now SOMW spike - another example of what people seem to misunderstand. SOMW was one skill that was overpowered, not the whole class. Nerfing the skill nerfed the build. There is no one skill that makes para overpowered, its the whole combination of their shouts and chants which is what the entire class is based on. For that reason the best thing to do is change the primary attribute like soul reaping. That had the same problem, there was no one skill that made 7 n/rts and a ranger spirit spammer overpowered.

Smite ball was not overpowered, it was just a phase the meta went through, another completely different idea.

tenshi_strife · Jun 03, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

um btw it does not need to be hexs.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

Sonic Boom(Air Magic)
spell
5E, 1 cast, 20 recharge.

Target foe and all other foes in earshot take 5...25 damage and are unaffected by shouts and chants for 5...20 seconds.

that would not be a hex.... it affects all foes in earshot so its an effective shut down..... now if the condition deafened was put in it would be able to be removed and be fair.... but as it is it would be a passive effect.

also like i said many conditions are a bit specific.... and deafened would affect wars and rangers too, thats only 1 less then what blind affects.

WARPATh · Jun 03, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

/notsigned

Awful idea.

Evilsod · Jun 03, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Tenshi what in gods name are you talking about... something like that would make the Paragon go from overpowered in packs to completely useless, full stop. Vocal Minority is balanced because it can be removed. Something like that would require Extinguish or the Paragon would be useless.

tenshi_strife · Jun 03, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

*cough searing flames cough*
*cough smoke trap cough*

this isnt only skill to spread nasty conditions around lol.

Qual · Jun 03, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Since this can't be discussed in the PvP Skill thread.

Is limiting the no. of Paragons in a team the only solution? That is, 1 or 2 Paragons max. As for secondaries i don't know, but this is mainly about the primaries.

I'm pretty sure many people have noticed how bad Paragons are becoming in PvE due the extreme and frequent nerfs they're receiving because of PvP. Truth is they're losing alot of effectiveness in PvP too because of teams of 4+ Paragons spamming chants leading to an intricate network of buffs that make things very powering. Single Paragons are nearly useless now.

So is this the only way of saving the Paragon? The change can be explained since the Paragon is a leader and having 4 different leaders doesn't quite make sense. This would completely stop builds like Paraway. But it would save the Paragons entire skill list.
I mean look at Incoming... originally lasted 7(?) seconds max. Been nerfed to 3 max. Its become effectively useless because of multiple Paragons chaining it.
The majority of the Motivation line? Some of these nerfs may have been needed anyway, the Restoration ones are reasonably strong, but they're still not direct heals.
Spear Mastery. Several of these have been nerfed because of the reasonable DPS the Para gets (from the extremely unfair IAS, Agressive Refrain, this skill really isn't balanced if compared to every other IAS in the game) and the spiking ability they have.
Command is also been nerfed bit by bit.
The Echos are almost useless to single paragons because of changes due to abuse in PvP.

So is this really the only solution to saving the Paragon before they get nerfed into oblivion? It may be drastic... but the nerfs have got to stop somewhere.

No discussions of changes to individual skills please, just this or other global changes that will save the Para from the nerfbat.

You gotta be kidding?

Evilsod · Jun 03, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

*cough searing flames cough*
*cough smoke trap cough*

this isnt only skill to spread nasty conditions around lol.

That post wasn't even necessary and had no point to it. Now just shut up and stop posting crap before i add you to my ignore list... (guru does have 1 right?). I really can't be bothered to point out the huge flaws and everything else thats wrong with all your posts.

I'm liking all the posts about 'zomg no wai!'. Whether this is implemented into PvE i don't much care. I'm also quite certain that the majority who has posted 'no' has probably never played with 2, or even 1 Paragon in a single PvE team.

KebabVan · Jun 03, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

fact is tons of people have said /not signed without giving alternative to solving the problem. there is really no reason why limiting the number of pargaons in a GvG team, if nothing else, to one would be a bad thing. it would be far easier for their skills to be balanced thats for sure. no one has even come up with a reason as to why it would be a bad thing except 'oh then you would have to do it to all other professions too' which is complete bull as there is no reason why that would have to happen at all.

I would /not sign because i think my idea of changing the primary attribute, just like soul reaping, would solve the particular problem without creating any new ones and without limiting options.

So those of you who just say no, can you give an actual reason why only allowing one, possibly 2, paragons per GvG team would be a bad idea? and dont just say 'oh you would have to do it to other professions', because you wouldnt. and dont just say 'it would prevent build creativity' because theres nothing creative about having more than 1 paragon in a GvG team. If you want to say either of those or anything else then can you justify and explain your reason?

drakun01 · Jun 03, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

I have seen all-Ele builds tear through people, I have seen all-dervish builds obliterate the competition, and on one occasion, a pure Mesmer build (funny to watch) also completely destroy the opposing team. If we limit paragons, why not limit others as well? And that will never happen, because GW is free-form.
Maybe A.Net could change leadership so that other paragons only give half the energy from leadership? I would say that Paragon primaries shouldn't give ANY energy from leadership, but I'm not sure how much that would cripple this build.